*CLOSED* PoIR Global Canon Initiative - Discussion

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*CLOSED* PoIR Global Canon Initiative - Discussion

Postby Kogasa Tatara » 30 Mar 2013 01:14

Update, May 11th

Closed for the time being, further details can be found in the PoIR Global Canon Initiative - Volunteer Sign Up thread.

If you haven't already, please read the the March 29th Continuity Meeting Summary first.

In addition, if you wish to volunteer, please sign up in the PoIR Global Canon Initiative - Volunteer Sign Up. This thread is dedicated to discussion directly related to organizing, cataloging, and deciding on PoIR's official canon and/or changes to canon policy.


Let's start with how we want to go about organizing past threads and making the information accessible for future reference. Personally, I think that making list of past threads, organized by characters, is a good starting place.

For example:

Code: Select all
<Character A>
<Thread Y>
<Thread Z>
...

<Character B>
<Thread Z>
...
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Re: PoIR Global Canon Initiative - Discussion

Postby Lyrica Prismriver » 30 Mar 2013 19:07

I certainly think this is probably the most effective way of organizing the threads, at least that I can see currently. A few things though.

Would I be correct in assuming we'd provide a link to each thread with the thread name? If not, perhaps consider that, so as to make gathering whatever information from it easier.

The fact is that the majority of threads are with many characters, or at least two. How would we be expected to handle thread recurrence in the list? Just list them under each character regardless?

What about threads that were never finished, but were kept in the archive and not retconned? How will those be handled? (I ask because, for one, I have one such thread).
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Re: PoIR Global Canon Initiative - Discussion

Postby Fujiwara no Mokou » 30 Mar 2013 21:01

The thread name can be hyperlinked to the thread in question on the list, or links can be placed next to it.

Unless we're doing this as a wiki, I don't know how we could compile such lists. It would be massively more work to have a list for every character, and it would make it hard to maintain consistantly. There could easily be a thread listed as canon on one character's list and retconned on another character's list. As a list in a forum thread, I just don't think it's feasible to do anything other than a single master list, or a master list for each location subforum. Instead, character-specific lists can be generated using the Advanced Search tool.

Unfinished threads can probably be considered the same as finished ones I think.
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Re: PoIR Global Canon Initiative - Discussion

Postby Kogasa Tatara » 30 Mar 2013 22:22

Lyrica, we would post threads under each character list. In my example, 'Thread Z' is a thread both 'Character A' and Character B' participated in.

Without root access, any wiki would have to be hosted elsewhere, off-site. If Sayonara actually has a host currently, we could potentially ask if she'd be interested in hosting such a wiki on it. Same to Patch, though I can't remember if he pays for server space for his own rp stuff or not.

I have thought of another possible alternative. Instead of one big list, we start a thread, where we reply with the posts for each character. Each character would have a single post that contains every thread they have been in. We would then assign certain characters to the volunteers, who will be responsible for gathering past threads and updating their assigned characters' posts (by editing them) as needed when new threads are archived. This would work around the post permissions issue, while enabling the flexibility needed to allow each volunteer to do their work in their own time, while not interfering with, or slowing anyone else down in the process.

So an example might be:

Code: Select all
PoIR Character Timelines
Post by Kogasa Tatara » Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:01 pm

This is an organized list of every past thread contained in PoIR's IC archives. The following list describes our volunteers and which characters they are responsible for organizing past threads here:

Lyrica Prismriver - Lyrica Prismriver
Fujiwara no Mokou - Kaguya Houraisan

---

Lyrica Prismriver (NOT Re: PoIR Character Timelines)
Post by Lyrica Prismriver » Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:06 pm

<Thread Y, hyperlinked to thread>
<Thread Z, hyperlinked to thread>

---

Kaguya Houraisan (NOT Re: PoIR Character Timelines)
Post by Fujiwara no Mokou » Sat Mar 30, 2013 8:07 pm

<Thread Z, hyperlinked to thread>


The first post would elaborate more, but this demonstrates the bare bones I have in mind.
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Re: PoIR Global Canon Initiative - Discussion

Postby Fujiwara no Mokou » 02 Apr 2013 21:39

One option for deciding what gets listed as part of the current continuity would be do assume that all threads done by a character's current player are current unless someone objects, and that all past threads are not, unless someone specifically asks for it to be included, and then the players of other characters in the thread can weigh in on whether or not they want that. The flaw in this is that there will be many threads where some characters still have the same player and some don't.

An easier version of this would be to say that the list of things that are part of the current continuity must be entirely built by request. People can submit their own threads at a minimum, and then any past threads that they like--or say they would prefer the character's entire history to be canon if they wish. People who don't mind either way can abstain and let others decide, and those who have conflicting opinions can discuss it.

As far as what happens next, we could have tags saying [Canon] and [Retconned], or perhaps an explicit retconning tag isn't necessary--we could just have the ones that are considered part of the latest continuity be tagged as [Current] or [Endorsed] or something like that, reflecting that it's decided based on what the current players approve of.
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Re: PoIR Global Canon Initiative - Discussion

Postby Rin Satsuki » 04 Apr 2013 20:19

Kogasa Tatara wrote:Without root access, any wiki would have to be hosted elsewhere, off-site. If Sayonara actually has a host currently, we could potentially ask if she'd be interested in hosting such a wiki on it. Same to Patch, though I can't remember if he pays for server space for his own rp stuff or not.


My hosting solution is currently offline as I am switching hosting providers, I don't plan to bring it back up until the six-month transfer timer on my domain name expires as it does cost me a bit to keep it online. Hosting a wiki will be easy, but as of right now it's not a viable course of action.

Patchy's forum is on shared hosting, no root access there.

If you decide you desperately want a wiki, there's always Wikia, but I doubt you want a wiki that badly. Alternatively, ask the folks at Touhouwiki very very nicely. Even if you did have your own wiki on our own hosting solution, there is no way to synchronize user credentials between phpBB and outside software that I am aware of* (all account management would have to be done manually). Due to the above, I recommend keeping whatever solution you devise on-forum.

* - there are a few wiki software packages that can interface with phpBB, but most seem to be abandoned or have otherwise ceased development. There is probably something out there which is actively maintained, but if there is I'm not familiar with it.

Fujiwara no Mokou wrote:As far as what happens next, we could have tags saying [Canon] and [Retconned], or perhaps an explicit retconning tag isn't necessary--we could just have the ones that are considered part of the latest continuity be tagged as [Current] or [Endorsed] or something like that, reflecting that it's decided based on what the current players approve of.


I would recommend keeping such a tag as short as possible, something like [C]. There is a hardcoded 60-character thread title limit, if a title exceeds 60 characters the forum software truncates the rest.

While this can be modified, I prefer to avoid making manual code changes where possible as they could potentially interfere with software updates.

Alternatively, use post icons.
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Re: PoIR Global Canon Initiative - Discussion

Postby Merlin Prismriver » 05 Apr 2013 12:35

Fujiwara no Mokou wrote:An easier version of this would be to say that the list of things that are part of the current continuity must be entirely built by request. People can submit their own threads at a minimum, and then any past threads that they like--or say they would prefer the character's entire history to be canon if they wish. People who don't mind either way can abstain and let others decide, and those who have conflicting opinions can discuss it.

I second this. Though it may be hard to reach out to the members who are online less often, it shouldn't matter much in the long run.

Fujiwara no Mokou wrote:As far as what happens next, we could have tags saying [Canon] and [Retconned], or perhaps an explicit retconning tag isn't necessary--we could just have the ones that are considered part of the latest continuity be tagged as [Current] or [Endorsed] or something like that, reflecting that it's decided based on what the current players approve of.

But is tagging the threads themselves really needed? There would be less conflicting canon if we just stick with this one list. And I find it unnecessary anyway, since people can just look up the canon list if they want to carry over anything from that thread.
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Re: PoIR Global Canon Initiative - Discussion

Postby Fujiwara no Mokou » 06 Apr 2013 10:09

Personally, if we only had one, I'd prefer to do just the thread tagging myself, because it's more accessible. People reading a thread will be able to see its status right away instead of having to go look it up. Granted, having an actual list gives you the ability to put more information into it, but I'm not sure we'll be doing that anyway given that it would multiply the work a lot. Also, as I mentioned before, lists of threads for individual characters can be generated automatically using Advanced Search, while in a forum thread at least that wouldn't work.
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Re: PoIR Global Canon Initiative - Discussion

Postby Patchouli Knowledge » 06 Apr 2013 12:13

Can someone recap what's been discussed here so far? This thread is getting hard to follow, and there's a possibility that others are finding it hard to follow as well. Which means that they might have something to say, but are unable to do so because they don't know what's being talked about.
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Re: PoIR Global Canon Initiative - Discussion

Postby Yukari Yakumo » 06 Apr 2013 12:46

Going over it, there seems to be three main ideas to keep track of whether a thread is canon or not:

1: Make a global thread people can check to see if a thread is canon or not (issues with this is that it's going to make people work a bit harder to look up whether it is or not)

2: Use a wiki or something to list what threads are canon or not (how can we get users to log on to do that? I would say a thread visible only to users would work with a single password to edit the list. Still, same problems as above.)

3: Put a [Canon] or [Noncanon], or [C] or [N] next to the name (may cause some thread titles to truncate if it's too long). Or put icons next to the names.
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Re: PoIR Global Canon Initiative - Discussion

Postby Patchouli Knowledge » 06 Apr 2013 12:51

To me, it seems as if a wiki is out of the question for the moment. We do have a wiki page on both Touhou wikis (the one at en.touhouwiki.net and the one in Wikia), but I'm not sure we should go beyond a single page on either of those.

I'm not so keen on the tagging idea, while the thread listing is appealing enough for me. It's not too much of a stretch from our character lists anyway.
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Re: PoIR Global Canon Initiative - Discussion

Postby Fujiwara no Mokou » 08 Apr 2013 10:26

A message from the Brotherhood of Nod

"Kane Lives! Down with GCI!"
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Re: PoIR Global Canon Initiative - Discussion

Postby Rin Satsuki » 10 Apr 2013 14:27

Patchouli Knowledge wrote:...the thread listing is appealing enough for me.


More or less my sentiment.

Moving on... the problem with this entire scheme, really, is that there are two main groups of people (generally speaking):

1) Care about which threads are "canon" and which aren't.
2) Don't really care.

This would be all well and good if 1) didn't need the cooperation of 2) to catalog what is and what isn't "canon", so to speak. The reverse isn't true; it's not going to matter to 2) if someone from 1) is getting antsy about which of 2)'s threads are "canon" and which aren't, because to them it's not an important distinction. So basically, you need a scheme where all the work is done by 1), because 2) isn't going to get anything out of it by putting time into this, and thus probably isn't going to bother. What we have so far satisfies that criteria, as far as I'm aware.

I'm aware that I've made this point before, but I'm reiterating it because some people missed the discussion where I made it, and the topic was kinda winding down.

tl;dr yes Mokou's idea is good and I support it.
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Re: PoIR Global Canon Initiative - Discussion

Postby Kogasa Tatara » 11 Apr 2013 00:43

Fujiwara no Mokou wrote:An easier version of this would be to say that the list of things that are part of the current continuity must be entirely built by request. People can submit their own threads at a minimum, and then any past threads that they like--or say they would prefer the character's entire history to be canon if they wish. People who don't mind either way can abstain and let others decide, and those who have conflicting opinions can discuss it.


This sounds like the most sensible compromise to me so far. Those who are concerned with having canon/non-canon explicitly and clearly listed can maintain a single post in a 'continuity thread', and those who don't care needn't be bothered with it. It also wouldn't have to be such a huge, organized task, as we'd leave it up to concerned players to list what they want in their own time.

Of course, this still leaves the question of if we want a global canon on big events. Not that I think we have many past events that would fit the criteria, but if people really want to start up incidents/events from now on, having an agreed on ruling with global canon ahead of time would be very helpful.

So far, it sounds like we've ruled out the wiki option. I agree with Patch and Rin, the thread tagging seems a bit over the top for something few likely care about. If interested players want to hammer out a specification on thread tagging, that's good and well, but I can't imagine enforcing it, which is my only issue with the idea.
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Re: PoIR Global Canon Initiative - Discussion

Postby Hong Meiling » 11 Apr 2013 02:31

As I have an avid interest in larger scale events in the reasonably near future, I support integrating a "system" or at least some kind of a procedure to make it more feasible with the canon project. In particular, making sure that everyone is on the same page seems like it would be crucial for that to not just get retconned later. It might happen anyways if someone drops, but maybe there's a way to limit the damage if that happens?
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