An argument for Continuity

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An argument for Continuity

Postby Hatate Himekaidou » 28 Feb 2013 00:40

With the changes to canon to us not having a canon it sets a dangerous precedent of effectively making it that there is no such thing as consequences for actions. And that there is no reason to even to shoot for something long term as put simply the other person could go and say, "Nope that didn't happen" and undermine the plot. This also effectively means PoIR now is a collection of individual scenes between people and not a single world that we are all playing in but endless random threads without any reason to expand out of one's own bubble.

Along with this, it seemed that a rather outspoken moderator who was against Visionary Gensokyo at the time of its creation made this change directly AGAINST the polls that lead to the creation of Visionary Gensokyo. Refer to viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3802 for the poll. Results were overwhelmingly for 'Make a new IC subforum where players can role play things outside of PoIR canon.' over 'Make continuity between threads opt-in; each thread would represent a distinct timeline.' But we decided to ignore the votes for this option and make this change, which effectively undermined one of the main reasons why Visionary Gensokyo existed.

Without any canon, why should we archive threads, have journals or even have player accounts? If nothing is canon, why not abolish exclusivity of characters and have everyone use personal user accounts and just role-play with the person who for that thread is using that character and when it’s done just abandon that role.
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Re: An argument for Continuity

Postby Merlin Prismriver » 03 Mar 2013 02:48

Adding my rant to your argument:

I'll admit this: When I first heard of the news to kick out universal canon, I thought it a great idea. At last, we don't have to muddle into our past and be consistent to what we don't like! The downside is, we don't have to muddle into our past and be consistent with the rest of the character's life.

But now that it's been implemented for a while, I do feel that RPing here is suddenly lacking, since, as you say, anything anyone do previously can just be Hand Waved away. Nothing's happening. No relation. Nada. Unless you already plan a whole giant story already, the individual threads suddenly become meaningless. People bumping into each other, which might looks simple, in real life can set stone for a whole relationships. But without universal continuity now, nope, that simple unimportant thing never happened. Why should it?

And Visionary Gensokyo, which when I first heard of sounds like a brilliant idea, suddenly lose half of its function. It was working a great back then. I could get a whole rant about this, but you get the point.
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Re: An argument for Continuity

Postby Hatate Himekaidou » 04 Mar 2013 05:39

Merlin Prismriver wrote:Adding my rant to your argument:

I'll admit this: When I first heard of the news to kick out universal canon, I thought it a great idea. At last, we don't have to muddle into our past and be consistent to what we don't like! The downside is, we don't have to muddle into our past and be consistent with the rest of the character's life.

But now that it's been implemented for a while, I do feel that RPing here is suddenly lacking, since, as you say, anything anyone do previously can just be Hand Waved away. Nothing's happening. No relation. Nada. Unless you already plan a whole giant story already, the individual threads suddenly become meaningless. People bumping into each other, which might looks simple, in real life can set stone for a whole relationships. But without universal continuity now, nope, that simple unimportant thing never happened. Why should it?

And Visionary Gensokyo, which when I first heard of sounds like a brilliant idea, suddenly lose half of its function. It was working a great back then. I could get a whole rant about this, but you get the point.


And really, many people don't have giant stories premade or even think that way (look to how many people are declaring story arcs so far. Personally, I hate the idea of railroading my development with preplanned out events and instead prefer organic character development through individual scenes and might even looking back at something retroactively make it an arc but when doing it have it being utterly random encounters.

Life doesn't play itself out with nice neat plotlines that go in straight lines from A to B and the lack of universal canon like you said it takes away simple encounters, which make up our daily lives. Look at Curiosities of Lotus Asia, Wild and Horned Hermit or the three Fairy Mangas. None of them have grand overarching plots, you might get a two part story here or there but really in the end it's utterly slice of life and episodic.

This change to continuity was brushed under the rug by the entire change to idle system debate, which really bore little to no fruit, only closing a loophole or two and not changing anything else. But that's another debate.

And the point about Visionary Gensokyo is a valid one as it utterly removes its purpose and since it was a "Trial Period" this neutering of it and removing that degree of incentive to use 'proves' that it was a 'mistake' and should remove it. But this really feels like is someone is rigging it to fail as they were not happy that the poll results said that it should be made.
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Re: An argument for Continuity

Postby Merlin Prismriver » 04 Mar 2013 10:47

This change to continuity was brushed under the rug by the entire change to idle system debate, which really bore little to no fruit, only closing a loophole or two and not changing anything else. But that's another debate.

Just wanna say... that I think the implementation is pretty meh, really. The idea of erasing strict turn order was nice, but the implementation was meh. But let's not talk about that here.

But this really feels like is someone is rigging it to fail as they were not happy that the poll results said that it should be made.

Now that's just pure speculation there.

But other than that, everything I wanna say, you said already. I agree with you.
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Re: An argument for Continuity

Postby Patchouli Knowledge » 04 Mar 2013 11:09

*puts mod hat on*

Please be reminded that this conversation should remain civil in tone. Don't post speculation that can be taken as an attack or an accusation against PoIR's members or staff. Thank you.
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Re: An argument for Continuity

Postby Yuyuko Saigyouji » 05 Mar 2013 21:18

Merlin Prismriver wrote:But now that it's been implemented for a while, I do feel that RPing here is suddenly lacking, since, as you say, anything anyone do previously can just be Hand Waved away. Nothing's happening. No relation. Nada. Unless you already plan a whole giant story already, the individual threads suddenly become meaningless. People bumping into each other, which might looks simple, in real life can set stone for a whole relationships. But without universal continuity now, nope, that simple unimportant thing never happened. Why should it?


This has always been the case - players have always been able to retcon things that either they or a past player of that character have written, and new players have always been free to completely wipe a character's history and start anew if they so wish. With a limited cast to choose from and no option of OCs (let's not start an argument over "then why not open OCs", since that's a completely different discussion entirely), retcons are going to happen. And indeed, always have.

To be completely frank, the spirit of the law has not changed at all - merely the letter.
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Re: An argument for Continuity

Postby Merlin Prismriver » 06 Mar 2013 13:34

@Yuyuko: Yeah, but with the current system, retcon just sorta run by default instead of an action that have to be taken. While the previous retcon-able system is there to wipe out things that are simply inconvenient, the current system also remove previous interactions that may affect future events. Unless you already planned everything, you probably don't know how any previous event is going to affect this shiny new thread you just joined/made, and as such don't want to carry things over.

New players are new, so I don't think that counts here.

Mmm... There's problem with retcons too, and how people aren't managing them, as well. Maybe I'm just not around PoIR long enough to see it.
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Re: An argument for Continuity

Postby Fujiwara no Mokou » 08 Mar 2013 02:01

It's true, there isn't really any particular management of retcons, no one's keeping track. That's the issue that the new policy was in response to. Our solution was to say that you don't have to worry about what other players have retconned, until it becomes relevant to your current roleplaying. This is the way we've always operated before, just without formal announcement of such. The strong wording of the announcement may be the problem, but other alternatives to the policy might be:

--Setting up a master list of threads indicating what is and isn't retconned, with people submitting their retcons to the people in charge of it

--Requiring everyone to keep a list of what threads they have and/or have not retconned from their own character's history in their journal
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Re: An argument for Continuity

Postby Merlin Prismriver » 09 Mar 2013 07:15

Fujiwara no Mokou wrote:This is the way we've always operated before, just without formal announcement of such. The strong wording of the announcement may be the problem,

Funny thing I just noticed: When it was first announced, I was all for it.

... Mmm. And another thing. Without universal continuity, things that your character does in a thread matters so much less now. When the thread ends, so does everything anyone did there. To the big picture, nothing is happening. Each thread is just their own separate universes that disappears after it's done, just nothing to everything else.

You can just say that it has always been this way, but if it is... why not just let open registration, as Hatate said? Why not just make everything in PoIR like Visionary Gensokyo? Play any character you want, at any time, provided you're accepted to use them. Have five different Reimus at the same time, why not?

... I dunno. As messy as it is, having canon and continuity and such feels like exactly what makes PoIR unique.

Fujiwara no Mokou wrote:but other alternatives to the policy might be:

--Setting up a master list of threads indicating what is and isn't retconned, with people submitting their retcons to the people in charge of it

--Requiring everyone to keep a list of what threads they have and/or have not retconned from their own character's history in their journal

The first option is pretty much dumping a large important job to a single person, or a single group. The second option is cutting that large important job into parts, but if someone doesn't maintain theirs, it's everyone's problem.

First option will ends up in one gigantic list - I guess? - that might be a mess to look at. The second option will clutter this list all about the Journal board, but people can look at only what matters to them.

Or we could just screw all this and play without continuity, with the aforementioned backlashes.

Which one sounds better?
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Re: An argument for Continuity

Postby Hatate Himekaidou » 09 Mar 2013 07:39

I'd rather do either of these options than NO CONTINUITY as really it means my threads are utterly meaningless for a few reasons

1) I don't make or participate in a large number of threads.
2) I don't aim to make any premade story arcs.

These facts mean that I'm extremely expendable and easily having all my work forever forgotten into the wasteland of "Archived Threads" which pretty much can be effectively listed as "Deleted" with the current system.

Admittedly if I knew this was to be the case I probably would NOT have joined POIR in the first place. This change really seems to drive home "Unless you are someone who can write full out story arcs you're a Second Class Player" which is by its nature divides the player base especially if these arcs are either closed player list or 'Ask First' which is pretty much 'Closed' when one looks at it. This encourages clique behavior and discourages any sort of community or drive to branch out and play with others.

With the decision to switch continuity an "Opt In" we encourage the idea of "Status Quo Is God" and with the constant reset button pushing we have no desire to actually do anything creative or productive or even attempt to grow as everything will be reset immediately after the arc. Sure it might prevent us from having to live with a horrible storyline or two but us immediately going back to reset means play gets stale if we're constantly reverting everything we do and that is a death sentence for a game.
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