[Battle System] Player's Ideas Thread

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[Battle System] Player's Ideas Thread

Postby Patchouli Knowledge » 01 Jul 2011 10:27

This thread is where anybody can post their ideas which Suika is completely not obliged at all to consider as future additions or revisions to the current battle system.

I'll post my latest ideas right now.

Name: Agility Type
Effect: (Defensive, User) Roll evasion twice, use the higher roll.
Cost: 3 SP
Description: Spellcards that sharpen the user's reflexes and concentration, improving their ability to avoid incoming attacks.

Name: Fortress Type
Effect: (Defensive, User) Roll defense twice, use the higher roll.
Cost: 3 SP
Description: Spellcards that provide overlapping layers of protection, reducing the chances of a direct hit.

Name: Curse Type
Effect: (Offensive, Target) Do not gain 1 SP at the start of turn. Only SP gained is through beating opponent's rolls. Lasts for 3 turns.
Cost: 4 SP
Description: Spellcards that disrupt the opponent, preventing them from gathering enough energy to use their own spells.
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Re: [Battle System] Player's Ideas Thread

Postby Komachi Onozuka » 01 Jul 2011 11:14

Name: Revenge Type
Effect:(Defensive, User) Gain +1 attack each turn you receive more than 5 damage. Lasts 3 turns.
Cost: 3 SP
Description: Spellcards that harness the user's anger and turn it back on the opponent.



Patchy, about your curse type. It's hardly worth it, if you're using more SP to cast the card than your enemy will lose from it.
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Re: [Battle System] Player's Ideas Thread

Postby Patchouli Knowledge » 01 Jul 2011 11:44

Yeah, as a matter of fact, I do realize that it looks as if it might not be worth it. I'm being deliberately conservative with the cost, however, because I might be underestimating the effectiveness of using this card at a time when an opponent is low on SP.
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Re: [Battle System] Player's Ideas Thread

Postby Marisa Kirisame » 01 Jul 2011 15:44

Some suggestions to each of your cards:

1. Patchy, for the curse type, I think you could modify it subtly to keep the around what you have.

SP is gained either by taking or dealing damage, correct? If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me. Taking that into account, you'd get something with a slightly different overall effect.

Suggested idea for adjustment:

Name: Curse Type
Effect: (Offensive, Target) Opponent is unable to gain SP during their turn. This effect lasts for 3 turns.
Cost: 4 SP
Description: Spellcards that disrupt the opponent, preventing them from gathering enough energy to use their own spells.

On the low end, you could make it cost 3 SP, which makes it rather good for it's effect, or you could take it to the high end of 5 SP to make it a more intimidating overall effect.

2. Komachi, in regards to the revenge type, would the effect be cumulative for the duration? Being out for revenge is usually something that you relentlessly go for. Also, with gaining any kind of bonus where everyone has a stat up to +2/-2, even a +1 bonus is really powerful. I think your cost is a little low.

Suggested idea for adjustment:

Name: Revenge Type
Effect:(Defensive, User) For the next three turns, if your opponent deals you 5 or more damage, your attack roll is increased by +1. This bonus persists until the effect ends.
Cost: 5 SP
Description: Spellcards that harness the user's anger and turn it back on the opponent.


My own suggestion:

Name: Twin Type
Effect: (Offensive, User) Roll your attack roll twice. Use the higher of the two rolls.
Cost: 4 SP
Description: Spellcards that bring multiple layers of attack into a single strike, increasing it's potential in battle.


Example version of this spellcard effect:

Loving Heart [Double Spark]
While not as powerful as the Master Spark, this adaptation of the spell was far more versatile in battle.
Effect (Offensive, User): Twin Type. Roll your attack roll twice. Use the higher of the two rolls.
Cost: 4 SP
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Re: [Battle System] Player's Ideas Thread

Postby Koakuma » 01 Jul 2011 17:21

Twin type already exists, except it's listed as homing.

Name: Homing Type
Effect: (User): Roll attack twice, use the higher roll.
Cost: 3 SP
Description: Spellcards that home-in on the target, having a higher chance of landing a hit on them.

Taken directly from the spellcard library.
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Re: [Battle System] Player's Ideas Thread

Postby Marisa Kirisame » 01 Jul 2011 21:00

Well, I certainly feel more blonde...
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Re: [Battle System] Player's Ideas Thread

Postby Patchouli Knowledge » 02 Jul 2011 03:15

Actually, I almost made that same mistake - I nearly forgot about Homing Type as well when I was typing my first post. And hmm, actually, preventing an opponent from getting SP altogether is probably better and certainly more deserving of a 4 SP ability.

Also, I have yet another idea to put here before I forget all about it entirely:

Repeatable Spellcards:

In the current battle system, you must have 8 unique effects in your deck, and furthermore, you may use each spellcard you have in a battle only once. In this rules variation, some spellcards can be used multiple times, but there are limits as to how many times they can be used.

  • Spellcards which cost 3 SP may be used a total of 3 times per battle.
  • Spellcards which cost 4 SP may be used a total of 2 times per battle.
  • Spellcards which cost 5 SP may be used only once per battle.

For spellcards which have two effects, the number of times it may be used is determined by the effect which costs more SP.

Example: Suika's Superdense Conflagration spellcard has two effects: Guard Break Type (3 SP) and Dense Type (5 SP). As a result, Superdense Conflagration may be used only once per battle, either as a Guard Break Type card or as a Dense Type card. This is because Dense Type costs 5 SP and can only be used once per battle.

As an alternative, but more complicated idea:
For spellcards which have two effects, the first time you use it, you determine the kind of effect that it has for the rest of the match. Even if the card has two effects with the same cost, you may not use their effects interchangeably.

Example: Suika's Superdense Conflagration spellcard has two effects: Guard Break Type (3 SP) and Dense Type (5 SP). If Suika uses it's Guard Break function, she may use Superdense Conflagration up to two more times per battle, but only as a Guard Break Type card. She may not use it again as a Dense Type card.

EDIT:
While not part of the official battle system rules, Suika has given her blessing and permission to allow players to use this concept in forum battles if they want.
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Re: [Battle System] Player's Ideas Thread

Postby Patchouli Knowledge » 02 Jul 2011 03:55

Note: Credit for this one isn't mine, but Sakuya's. This one I'm posting for her, since she's not around right now.

Last Shooting:

Proposed by Sakuya, this rules modification is intended to address the disadvantage of going second in a spellcard battle. If the character who acted second in a spellcard battle is the first one to lose, they get one last turn to try and bring their opponent's HP lower than their own.

Example:
Sakuya initiated a battle with Patchouli. After several rounds of fighting, Patchouli is down to 4 HP, and Sakuya is down to 5 HP. Sakuya attacks Patchouli, with a result of 8. Patchouli defends with a result of 3, which means she takes 5 damage, and is now down to -1 HP.

Since Patchouli was the second one to act when the battle began, she is given one final chance to win. She makes an attack, with a result of 9. Sakuya attempts to evade and fails, and is taken down to -4 HP. Since this is lower than Patchouli's HP of -1, Sakuya ends up losing.

EDIT:
While not part of the official battle system rules, Suika has given her blessing and permission to allow players to use this concept in forum battles if they want.
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Re: [Battle System] Player's Ideas Thread

Postby Patchouli Knowledge » 02 Jul 2011 04:30

Touhou has a number of characters that, as a result of multiple appearances, canonically have many spellcards. However, the battle system limits characters only to a maximum of eight, and their players have to select only four of them at the start of each battle. Not only that, but the battle system has several spellcard effects listed, a lot more than the eight effects that each character is permitted to have.

To allow people to have more fun and give them a chance to play around with additional spellcards or additional spellcard effects, here is a rules modification to let them do so!

Spontaneous Spellcards:

Once per battle, a character may spontaneously devise a spellcard on the fly. To do so, they must select the effect they want to use, then provide a name and a description for their impromptu spellcard. This spellcard costs 2 more SP to use than the normal cost, and does not allow a character to exceed the maximum limit of 4 spellcards per battle.

A character who has more than four spellcards can also use this ability to use an official spellcard they have submitted, but again must pay 2 additional SP than it's normal listed cost.

If this rules modification is used in combination with the Repeatable Spellcards modification, the spellcard used through this ability may be used -only- once, regardless of their original SP cost.

Example 1:
In the middle of a fight, Patchouli wishes to use a spellcard that isn't part of her usual repertoire, Royal Diamond Ring. To do this, she selects an effect for Royal Diamond Ring, and decides to make it a Full Power Type card (5 SP). When she uses Royal Diamond Ring in that fight, it looks like this:

Sun Moon Sign "Royal Diamond Ring"
Whirlpools of light form and attack from the side. They are individually weak, but since they come in succession and have a long duration, it can overwhelm the opponent.
Type: Full-Power Type (Offensive, User)
Effect: Attack roll becomes 1d6+6 this turn. If opponent's defense roll is lower then half the user's attack roll, opponent takes +1 damage.
Cost: 7 SP

Example 2:
At the start of a battle, Patchouli selected a Guard Break card, a Barrier card, a Spirit Drain card and a Full Power card, but finds herself desperately needing to heal some HP. In her officially submitted deck, she has Photosynthesis, a Healing Type card. To use Photosynthesis, Patchouli must pay 6 (4+2) SP for it, as she did not initially select it as one of her four spellcards.

As always, this idea can be adopted as an unofficial variant that players can use in their forum battles as long as both parties involved agree to it.
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Re: [Battle System] Player's Ideas Thread

Postby Shizuha Aki » 06 Jul 2011 20:25

Here's my idea.

Name: Reinforce Type
Effect: (Offensive, User) Gains +3 Attack if attack roll is 6 or lower, not counting your Atk stat.
Cost: 4 SP
Description: Spellcards that are reliable, or guaranteed to have a certain minimum effect, even with bad luck.

Also, Agility type could also be Duplicate type, since if the enemy goes after the wrong duplicate, they won't hit the real one.
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Re: [Battle System] Player's Ideas Thread

Postby Patchouli Knowledge » 21 Jul 2011 03:10

Guard Meter (Or how to make Defense less reliable)

Despite the fact that Defense reduces only a small amount of damage from enemy attacks, and that you will always take a minimum of 1 damage whenever you choose to block an attack rather than evade it, it's still a far better option to block attacks most of the time. This variant is an idea on how to make Defense a less reliable ability to count on.

The mechanic:
Instead of negating damage entirely, Defense absorbs damage from an attack into a special buffer, the Guard Meter. The Guard Meter has a capacity of 10 damage + character's Defense stat. Damage reduced by blocking goes to the Guard Meter, and whenever it's buffer is filled up, a 'Guard Break' occurs. The character may not use Defense on their next turn.

Example:
Patchouli has a defense stat of +1. This gives her a Guard Meter of 11 damage. During a fight, she rolls a result of 5 on defense, against an attack of 8. She takes 3 damage to her HP, and her meter fills up by 5. Next turn, her opponent deals an attack of 8, and she gets a result of 7 on her Defense. Patchouli takes 1 damage to her HP, and her Guard Meter is maxed out, which means she's forced to use Evasion only on her next turn.

Additional variant:
If a character's Guard Meter is maxed out, a character may choose to spend 3 SP in order to use Defense on that turn.
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Re: [Battle System] Player's Ideas Thread

Postby Marisa Kirisame » 22 Jul 2011 21:21

After enjoying my round in the tournament, I noticed there is something unbalanced about Defense and Evasion.

Evasion has a very difficult limitation, since the roll needs to exceed the attack roll in order to negate the damage. In cases of a very high roll, such as a 8 or 9, the odds of evasion being remotely useful are very low. Defense, however, remains a very consistent means of defense, being able to always negate 1 Damage (provided you don't have a -1 for that stat).

Ultimately, I think a little tweek to Evasion would prove to be a nice adjustment.

Idea: Allow for Evasion to be able to count if you roll equal to the attack roll.

Example: Mima makes an attack roll of 8 against Marisa. Marisa rolls 1d10+1 and gets an 8. Normally, she'd take full damage, but instead, she would take none.

While it seems kind of a moot point, this does make evasion a slightly more available option since you increase the chance to evade, effectively, by 10%. This allows players who are reliant on speed have a somewhat fairer defense against those people who are tanks (high def and HP).

Also, I like the guard break idea, but it's a little more restricting than I think most are comfortable with. Reason being: The guard meter never goes down. Thus, I would like to suggest two ideas to go along with that.

Idea 1: Whenever you gain SP, the amount of absorbed damage is reduced by 1.
Example: Meiling has +2 Defense, thus has a maximum guard value of 12. She has 5 points accumulated thus far. It is now her turn, which makes her SP increase by 1 and her accumulated damage to decrease to 4.

This allows for Guard to still remain useful in a prolonged battle, when the gauge would likely have maxed out (Especially, since you can negate 8 points of damage in a single turn if you have a +2 Defense, which is more than half the limit).

Idea 2: Whenever you roll to evade, subtract 1 from the accumulated damage absorbed. If you successfully evade, subtract 2 points instead.
Example: Assuming the same Meiling scene as described in the previous example, Meiling has 5 points accumulated out of her maximum of 12. Rather than blocking the next attack, she decides to evade. If she fails to evade, the amount of accumulated damage decreases to 4. If she successfully evades, it is decreased to 3.

These two ideas actually create a kind of synergy between Defense and Evasion which I feel should exist. You shouldn't sit like a brick all the time (nor should it be an option that works), and you can't run around hoping you don't get hit (and subsequently look like a chicken with your head cut off). There should be a balance between these two options to keep the playing field fair to everyone, regardless of their character's stats :)
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Re: [Battle System] Player's Ideas Thread

Postby Shizuha Aki » 23 Jul 2011 23:45

More balance stuff!

Based on my simulations, there is a definite imbalance problem. Here are the tiers from the simulator (1000 battles per pairing). The format is type: going first %/going second %.

Results:
30/1/2/-1: 84.39%/76.12%
30/2/1/-1: 84.04%/72.30%
35/1/1/-1: 80.37%/70.86%
35/2/0/-1: 81.80%/69.03%
35/0/2/-1: 79.37%/71.12%
40/1/0/-1: 76.07%/64.40%
40/0/1/-1: 72.77%/62.93%
25/1/2/0: 71.18%/59.57%
25/2/1/0: 70.01%/54.90%
30/1/1/0: 68.33%/55.91%
30/0/2/0: 66.99%/56.87%
30/2/0/0: 68.27%/52.37%
35/2/-1/0: 67.59%/51.15%
35/1/0/0: 62.99%/49.66%
35/0/1/0: 61.34%/51.09%
40/1/-1/0: 60.16%/46.46%
35/-1/2/0: 56.89%/47.70%
30/2/-1/1: 56.58%/41.49%
40/0/0/0: 53.43%/42.08%
35/1/-1/1: 51.65%/39.10%
25/0/2/1: 50.63%/39.62%
25/1/1/1: 51.04%/37.52%
40/-1/1/0: 48.40%/39.44%
25/2/0/1: 50.66%/35.40%
30/1/-1/2: 47.92%/37.24%
30/1/0/1: 48.47%/35.48%
30/0/1/1: 46.18%/34.62%
30/-1/2/1: 42.47%/35.03%
40/0/-1/1: 42.52%/32.33%
35/0/-1/2: 40.99%/32.26%
35/0/0/1: 40.67%/30.78%
25/1/0/2: 38.01%/27.83%
35/-1/1/1: 35.71%/28.36%
25/0/1/2: 33.78%/24.84%
30/0/0/2: 33.76%/24.62%
40/-1/0/1: 29.24%/22.55%
30/-1/1/2: 26.77%/20.60%
35/-1/0/2: 25.56%/19.30%

Notably, the most imbalanced match is 30/-1/1/2 vs. 30/1/2/-1, where the former has a 3.5% chance of victory going first, and only a 2.1% chance going second. This speaks of a massive, massive imbalance problem in this system. Also, going first can be a huge advantage. This needs tweaking to fix.
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Re: [Battle System] Player's Ideas Thread

Postby Chen » 24 Jul 2011 00:37

Revamping what Marisa said earlier. Skip to the bottom of the post if you don't like math.

Yes, evade is currently worse; that is, disregarding stat boosts, evade takes strictly more damage on average unless the attacker's roll is 2 or 3. So, I tried to come up with some other systems.

I worked under the assumption that we want defense to be better about half the time- defining 'better' to mean 'takes, on average, less damage'.

I tested various dice options for both defense and evasion. In general, evasion turned out to be a better try against lower attack rolls and defense was a better try against higher rolls. Therefore, the most balanced systems were the ones where:
1) Evasion was better against the rolls 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6;
2) Defense was better against the rolls 8, 9, 10, 11, and 12;
3) The two methods performed almost equally against the median and most likely roll, 7.

Here are the three systems which came out on top in terms of balance:

System 1: 2d6 and ties win for evade, 1d8 for defense. At the roll 7, the expected damages are 2.92 versus 2.88: a paltry difference of only 0.03 HP!
System 2: 2d6 and ties win for evade, 1d10-1 for defense. At the roll 7, the expected damages are 2.92 versus 3.10: a difference of only 0.18 HP!
System 3: 1d10+1 and ties win for evade, 1d6 for defense. This is perhaps the most impressive system for balancing against 7- the expected damage is exactly 3.5 for both evading and defending!

Patchouli said she doesn't like the first system because 1d8's are rarer in real life, making tabletop gameplay awkward. That leaves systems 2 and 3; personally, I prefer the third both because of its perfect balance in terms of how often defense and evasion are used, and because it's almost identical to the current system, requiring almost no work on the part of the mods and almost no effort for people to adapt to the new system (it effectively just adds 2 to each evasion roll.)

tl;dr: My proposal is to add 2 to each evasion roll. This should balance defense and evasion almost perfectly.
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Re: [Battle System] Player's Ideas Thread

Postby Sakuya Izayoi » 24 Jul 2011 00:52

A quick secondary note I pulled together just from starting to observe and pull together data from the Spellcard battle.

Healing is, right now, possibly the best spellcard out there. Consider: Dense shifts the average attack from 7 to 11, a change of +4, so an average of 4 more damage. The cost is 5 SP. The other attack cards have a lower magnitude.

Healing, for 4 SP, regains 5 HP. It's got a better efficiency ratio (1.25x instead of 0.8x) and has a lower base cost, and a greater absolute magnitude. Surprising, eh?
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